replant failure or not?

[priorservice]

In my research I see in commercial planting growers do not replant because of failure from an unknown toxin in the ground. On the other side of the spectrum I see with wild Sim plantings they speak of sustained Harvest with mixed age plants. My Question is, is it actuall possible to perpetual harvest older plants from the same ground year after year forever as long as we do not take a certain amount from the patch?

[Brad]

Welcome to the forum.

Good question.  There is a scientific study in there somewhere that as far as I know has not yet been done.  No one knows for certain what causes replant failure.

However, I can speak to my own observations.  What I have seen is that even in small beds planted intensely (for rootlet harvest in the first 4 years or so) I cannot reseed and get any form of success.  I might plant a half pound in a bed that was killer five years after it was harvested, and only see three or four seedlings the next spring.

I see wild patches which grow all ages right beside one another, because gravity is the primary disperser of ginseng seed.  This is notwithstanding the allelopathic  characteristics of ginseng.  I know that in my own wild simulated patches, all ages grow right together as after the fifth year or so they started reseeding and new plants begin to grow along side those I've planted years before.  It is important to not that I planted these patches with my ECF Seeder.

So, the common theme seems to be the degree to which the ground is disturbed.  The more the ground is disturbed, the more like one is to experience replant failure if he tries to reseed that area.  I suspect as you note, that if someone has a wild sim patch and tries to dig it all, or significantly disturbs the soil, replant failure might be the result there as well.

So, while I can't give you are really solid answer, I think you are on the right track consistent with my experiences and observations.

[priorservice]

Thankyou for your answer. So it looks like if I only harvest a certain small percentage of roots I might be able to sustain a harvest. I did find a book that referanced this problem like bricks in a wall. Once you. Take to many you will have a colapse. The rest of the ginseng in that patch die or go dormant for many years. It makes sense to me to spread my plantings out to avoid this problem or plant heavier and plan on picking all and not going back. Sounds like this could be why it disapears so quickly when uneducated people dig it. They take to much of the patch and it colapses. Mother natures way to cut the greedy folks out. Problem is once one greedy person quits because it becomes hard to find another greedy person takes their place due to market demand. I wish there was an incentive to grow it from the feds. Then people would be more apt to do it for them selves instead of taking it from others. Even a small amount would keep peoples focus on perpetuating it instead of taking it.
Sound possible?
Im not one for govermental control but if they could make a law that fines or jails poachers and rewards growers we all could benifit and some poachers would be converted to growers.

[Brad]

Well, I'm not sure about all of that...but I have no reason to argue the point either as it is largely an unknown phenomenon. 

Depending on growing conditions, I normally anticipate that 40% of the roots in an area of 10 year old plants will be large enough to consider harvesting.  So, if you only harvest high quality large and larger roots on a selective basis, I don't think you will be taking enough out to disturb the soil enough to harm the patch overall.  You might find less than 40% also when you consider quality.  For instance, don't bother digging large pencil/carrot roots as they are very low value on the buyer's table, and will continue to produce seed if left, making them more valuable in the ground.

I don't think we will ever see any sort of incentive to grow ginseng.  The potential negative externalities alone would make this an ill conceived idea in my opinion.  I think the answer is less regulation on growers.  Let us treat ginseng like a crop instead of an endangered species of plant.  Regardless of the CITES II listing, ginseng is not at all endangered.  Drive to Wisconsin or Ontario and see the acres of fields full of ginseng.  As a plant, it isn't endangered at all.  The largest issues for wild ginseng isn't poaching.  Instead, the largest antagonists for wild ginseng is loss of habitat and increased deer herds.

[priorservice]

Wow that is very insightful! OK I'll follow your lead. Leaving pencils in the ground For seed. Select harvest. Very sound practice By the sounds. You are so right about the loss of habitat. I see so many forests managed strictly for almost clear cutting now in upstate ny. They even cut and leave beech trees. All that does is make a ton of root sprouts and shade everything out. Yes deer Are a giant problem. If I give them other things like strawberry bush (deer icecream) do you think that would keep their attention elsewear? It is supposed to grow prolifically even if browsed to ground level.

[Brad]

I don't know.  It sounds like a good experiment though.  I've always focused on convincing deer they did not want to be near my patches (electric fences, pulling jewel weed, etc).  So, the idea of giving them something better is on the other end of the spectrum but along the same vane of logic.  I think it might work.

[priorservice]

Ok I'll give it a try. Of course I will harvest a few deer as well during hunting season. Have to keep them in checK too. I'm also planning on planting a variety of other plants like elberberry, aronia which is native to the north east but not around due to use of farm land, June berry, wild pears, native Chickasaw  Indian plum, hybred chestnuts, and brush hogging lower pasture should keep the deer interested elsewere. I hope. As the years progress I'll see how things develope. Permiculture (perminent agriculture)is the direction I think will be best for my situation. I won't have to tend much at all to the other plants once the sang is in. I can put my efforts to that.

[JWforestSeng]

Really good topic. Thanks to both of you. I love the permaculture ideas priorservice. Good luck with the perpetual harvest. I also like the "deer icecream" idea. let us know how it goes if you do it.

Question:
Brad you said

What I have seen is that even in small beds planted intensely (for rootlet harvest in the first 4 years or so) I cannot reseed and get any form of success.

Is the woods grown wild sim or cultivated?

[Brad]

Woodsgrown.  Wild simulated doesn't seem to have that issue.  The connecting/tipping point seems to be disturbance of the soil.  Cultivated and woodsgrown where the soil is tilled/disturbed seems to experience similar replant failure.  I have not experimented, but suspect that wild simulated or maybe even wild plantings where the soil is disturbed by intense harvesting might experience the same phenomena.

[qcsammy1]

   Hey Brad, I got my ECF Seeder in the mail today and it looks nice. Can't wait to give it a go in the fall and see what kind of volume I can get planted with it. On the topic, what about completely harvesting a quarter to half an acre then replanting with 2 or 3 yr. old root instead of seeds, do you think they would have the problem or not?

[Brad]

In my experience, they will be no different.  I've planted 2yr root in beds where seedlings were harvested several years prior.  I think only two lived and I don't know if they came back the second year.

My recommendation is to get the area you want to seed ready by clearing undergrowth and trimming tree branches up until you can walk under them.  This helps with airflow also.  Then plant in a rough 8 x 12 spacing dropping  a couple seeds at a time.   Then, in two years, go back and seed over the same area again in maybe a 12 x 12 right over seedlings that are there.  If you seed earlier in the fall you can see where the bare spots are in seed those thicker.  When I seed with the seeder I don't spend time worrying about spacing at all.  I plant in a semi-circle in front of me (right handed and go from right to left) and move the seeder over about 8 inches or so each time I poke a hole.  Then, when I get to my left side, I take a small step forward and start again.

Seeding the same patch again does two things.  First, it allows you to fill in where the plants didn't make it.  Secondly, it gives you mixed age classes at harvest.  This can be important. 

By using this method, you will have seedlings you didn't plant start showing up about year 6 on their own given you have a good location.  So if you are with me so far, we have a naturally reproducing patch of ginseng.  I've never seen replant failure in wild patches when planted seed from plants I've harvested.  So my recommendation is to only SELECTIVELY HARVEST the biggest plants which have attained the age, size and shape characteristics to bring the highest market prices.

Lets do the math just for giggles.  (this is theoretical of course no guarantees are being made here to anyone  )

43,560 square feet in an acre.  If we go with 6x6 spacing, that is about 5 per square foot which is generally considered max for wild sim sustainability (and the numbers are easier to work with here in this example).  Because of rocks and trees, lets go with 80% plantable.  So we have 43,560 x .8 =34,848 square feet x 5 seeds per foot = 174,240 / 7000 seeds per pound = 24.89 lbs of seed.

Now, if only 20% of those 174,240 seeds grow and survive to 10 years, that would be 174,240 x .2 = 34,848 10 year old plants.   Of those 34,848 plants, I would guess only about 40% of those will be of harvestable size or quality.  So, 34,848 x .4 = 13,939 plants.  If we say that harvestable is 150 roots/lb, then 13,939 / 150 = 92.92 lbs of ginseng to harvest. 

You won't be able to dig 93 lbs in a season if you are digging it carefully for top dollar.  You are much better off selectively harvesting only the biggest and best quality, digging them very carefully as individuals and bringing the highest quality root to market.  This way, you do not tear up the whole patch.  The roots you did not dig this year will be getting bigger and older for next year and will hopefully still be producing seed to continue the patch.

Also, by selectively harvesting a single root at a time, I think you will avoid the replant failure issue all together.

I've a patch ready to harvest, but have held off the past couple years because of the lower prices.  So I can't say this will avoid replant failure, but consider this...we aren't replanting anything this way!  Also, the common denominator in replant failure from my observation is tilled/disturbed earth.  I think by leaving everything alone in a wild sim patch (meaning the ground is left intact when planting rather than tilled up -which is what my  seeder does) and only harvesting single roots, you avoid the whole issue.

[Bman Rick]

This is just a guess, but on the micro level of the forest is a very interconnected web of supporting fungi, bacteria, and smaller lifeforms that form a food sharing web between the plants and trees. It could be that the ginseng is more sensitive to the large scale disruption of this vital nutrient sharing connection, too much damage leads to a collapse.  This also could allow for the retention of any alotropic (?sp) properties of the ginseng plant in the sections of the broken web as the harvested plants micro roots decay. 

[Brad]

You might be on to something there.  I've proposed a grant looking into the problem in the past without success.  However, I think there might be a new product group that is showing promise and I might be invited to experiment with it this fall.