Ginseng Forum

General Category => General Discussion => : FTB June 27, 2011, 06:31:00 PM

: Raised bed soil....
: FTB June 27, 2011, 06:31:00 PM

 I have an area that I can put 1ea 4 foot by 10 foot. raised bed.That would give me 40 plants for seed If I can find rootlets.

 I was going to make the beds out of 2x8,and put landscape fabric down so the tree roots and grasses don't come up and still get drainage.

Now what type of soil?I see sandy mix,what is that?What about just some good old rich woods dirt?Can't I make the bulk of the dirt up with miracle grow garden mix,maybe some peat?Peat would keep the dirt from packing and keep soil moist but not wet...

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad June 27, 2011, 11:03:13 PM

Go with the peat based mix.  I would stay away from woods dirt as it already contains all of the fungi necessary to kill off the whole bed.  Also, I've learned that at times it becomes necessary to empty the beds and start over.  So, pick a mix you can replicate, and one that you can use elsewhere (your garden and flower beds) when it leaves your ginseng beds.

I use treated 2x8s and make the beds four feet wide and sixteen feet long.  In each bed i put six to eight large bales of red Canadian peat.  I mix the peat with mason sand.  I also put a couple inches of sand on the bottom of the bed before I put in the peat/sand mix.  Mix the top layer well and the bed will begin disease free.

I use the red peat because of its acidic qualities.  Likewise, if I am going to leave a bed long-term, I sometimes mix in a few bags of shreaded hardwood mulch.  The wood is acidic as well.  I don't add anything other than maybe gypsum (this adds calcium without raising the pH like lime does).  Never fertilize these beds or you will find yourself in an everlasting fight with disease.

This mix will work well for either seeds or rootlets.  Just make sure it is uniformily moist or the seed and rootlets may dry out.  (I would recommend making and filling the beds now, and planting them in the fall.  Water them good at first, then let them reach a natural state of moisture.

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: FTB June 28, 2011, 07:25:00 AM

 Organtic fertilizers like some meal and blood meal would be a no-no then?I just can't see peat have'n any nutrition value.

What would make a good mulch for winter?I was gonna chop up straw with a lawn mower.How think of an layer?

Thanks Frank

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad June 29, 2011, 02:37:06 AM

I don't think you will have trouble with stuff like that in moderation.  Some studies have shown low pH and very high calcium tends to be found with huge ginseng plants....hence the gypsum.

Straw (even unmulched) will work.  Be careful of weed seeds though, and I'd spray it with a good fungicide before it gets too cool.  I have good success with mulched up leafs.  Maple seem to be the best as they mulch up nicely and don't prevent the seedlings from coming through like oak leafs do.

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: FTB July 01, 2011, 06:50:39 PM

Brad

What would be a good fungicide?...I can not find any hard wood mulch.Everything I'm finding is cedar.

 With a peat and sand mix would the roots be long and skinny?

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad July 01, 2011, 10:09:04 PM

Roots raised in that mix (and currently I'm not using mulch in my beds either) the roots will be larger and smoother than their woods grown counterparts.  If you are raising them for seed or starting them then transplanting, that isn't an issue.  If you are raising them for root, it is a huge issue.  Cultivated is selling about $27 a pound.  Last year I paid as high as $750 for wild.  If you want to raise them for root, start them in the beds then transplant them.  And, you can plant them MUCH thicker than that if you will be moving them out in a year or two.

Here are pics of one of my beds a couple years ago.  I had ones and twos side by side.  These are the SELECT rootlets I sell.

(http://www.emeraldcastlefarms.com/forum/pics/1sn2s.jpg)

(http://www.emeraldcastlefarms.com/forum/pics/1sn2s_2.jpg)


As for fungicides, you MUST have a number of them if you are going to use them.  Fungi quickly develope a resistance if you use the same thing over and over.  A good basic would be a metalic copper like Kocide (kills surface fungus in the spring and helps with blight/alterneria), a Ridomil/Bravo mix (washing into the soil and protects the rootzone also), and Aliette (a systemic fungicide that works well on alterneria and also helps with soil borne fungi like phytopthora (root rot).

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: FTB July 02, 2011, 04:14:20 PM

Brad

 Nice beds.I see blue cohosh  :) On that first pic in the right corner is that golden seal?..I want to get some of that started also.This way I will have roots to transplant.Is it grown in the same soil types as far as soil mixture for raised beds?I'm guessing so.

 I did order a few books.It will help and keep me from beating your ear ..lol...

Have a safe 4th ....Thanks again ...Frank....

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad July 03, 2011, 12:39:20 AM

Frank,

No worries!  Ask away.  If I don't know the answer, maybe one of the others will.  This is why I put the forum up.

No goldenseal visible in the first picture, Jack-in-the-pulpit and blue cohosh.  However, there is goldenseal in the first picture.  There is a single to the right of the cohosh at the  bottom of the picture, an a patch of it at the tip by the yellow flag.

Click on the url of the pic zoom it in your browser for a better look

http://www.emeraldcastlefarms.com/forum/pics/1sn2s_2.jpg

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: FTB July 26, 2011, 06:35:25 PM

Brad

 I mixed 50/50 peat and sand.I got to say thats a nice mix.

 I put a 1 inch sand base down first.The 2 inches of stait peat.The rest was the mix.Also in every mix I threw in 2 shovel full of black mulch.

 Now how much is that going to pack down? That was 2 big bales of peat and about 1300 pounds of sand that was used in a 4x10 raised bed.....

 Now I just got to get another bed made for golden seal.....I'm intreasted in seal cause I can't find the wild stuff.I want a bed for transplants..........

 Thanks again   Frank

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad July 26, 2011, 11:41:14 PM

You know, I was just thinking about your prior question about the length and narrowness or carrot-like quality of ginseng roots in this mix.  I think the addition of sand and the bark helps with this issue. 

Another thing that I was recalling just the other day while I was working on the new book (hope to have it ready by September in printed virsion) is that a good friend who grows ginseng commercially uses a 'conditioner' on his beds.  All this is is a set of rollers with strands of 1/4" rebar welded on and formed into the same contour as his beds.

Here is a picture of the plow and the conditioner mounted behind.

(http://www.emeraldcastlefarms.com/forum/pics/ginseng_plow_conditioner.jpg)

What that does is intentionally compact the ground to some extent.  This appears to cause smaller, but bulbier root which is more valuable.  So, with this in mind, it might be that a little patting down is a good thing in a ginseng bed as long as the soil remains porous enough to allow good drainage for excess water.

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: FTB July 27, 2011, 11:37:07 AM

Brad

 The best I can gather is My ph is 7.5 with that mix..I think I needed more Peat than sand.I don't understand why the ph is so high use'n peat!!!I added aluminum sulfate to lower the ph.If...I mean If my calculations are right I should be at 5.5 when it's finished.Also I found Green Sand..It's better than pot ash,won't get soggy and has the same effect...

 Now I just got to find gypsum.The stuff I found is synthetic and cost 22.00 for 50 lbs..Thats way to much.Now rock phosphate will raise the ph right?They say Bone meal will raise ph also.....

 Any thoughts?...Thanks Frank

 Ps....Are you selling seeds by 1/2 pound by any chance?

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad July 27, 2011, 01:27:47 PM

Yes, that sounds high to me too.  When I'm done with this mix, it normally is 6 or 6.5ish.  I looked up the Ontario recommendations and they predictably say 6-6.5.  They recommend sulphur or ammonium sulphate to lower pH.  However, they provide no recommendations on its application.

I don't use fertilizer of any sort around ginseng, so this is new stuff to me.  I'm thinking of trying a bed or two and growing it as if it were commercially cultivated to produce seed.  Here is what I was able to find on using sulphur:

http://www.improve-your-garden-soil.com/use-of-sulfur-to-lower-soil-ph.html

To lower soil pH of light sandy loams one full point (i.e., from pH 6.0 to 5.0) as a guideline the use of sulfur, 10 pounds of dusting sulfur per 1,000 square feet, should be about right. In medium loam soil, add 15 pounds, and to heavy clay loam, 20 pounds. (Ordinarily dusting sulfur is perfectly satisfactory; no need to pay a premium for special grades.)

And, I also found this:

http://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html

Two materials commonly used for lowering the soil pH are aluminum sulfate and sulfur. These can be found at a garden supply center. Aluminum sulfate will change the soil pH instantly because the aluminum produces the acidity as soon as it dissolves in the soil. Sulfur, however, requires some time for the conversion to sulfuric acid with the aid of soil bacteria. The conversion rate of the sulfur is dependent on the fineness of the sulfur, the amount of soil moisture, soil temperature and the presence of the bacteria. Depending on these factors, the conversion rate of sulfur may be very slow and take several months if the conditions are not ideal. For this reason, most people use the aluminum sulfate.

Both materials should be worked into the soil after application to be most effective. If these materials are in contact with plant leaves as when applied to a lawn, they should be washed off the leaves immediately after application or a damaging leaf burn may result. Take extreme care not to over-apply the aluminum sulfate or the sulfur.

You can use the following tables to calculate the application rates for both the aluminum sulfate and the sulfur. The rates are in pounds per 10 square feet for a loamy soil. Reduce the rate by one-third for sandy soils and increase by one-half for clays.
 
They have tables, I'll try to post them in a minute or so

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad July 27, 2011, 01:55:44 PM

Tables from http://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html (http://www.savvygardener.com/Features/soil_ph.html)

Pounds of Aluminum Sulfate to lower the pH

Ph / Desired pH 6.5 6.0 5.5 5.0 4.5 8.0 1.8 2.4 3.3 4.2 7.8 7.5 1.2 2.1 2.7 3.6 4.2 7.0 .06 1.2 2.1 3.0 3.6 6.5 - .06 1.5 2.4 2.7 6.0 - - .06 1.5 2.1 Pounds of Sulfur to lower the pH pH / Desired pH 6.5 6.0 5.5 5.0 4.5 8.0 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.7 7.5 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 7.0 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 6.5 - 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 6.0 - - 0.1 0.2 0.3

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: FTB July 27, 2011, 02:55:57 PM

Brad

 Thanks for all the info.

 The Aluminum sulfate lowered the ph....I watered the bed good and it's down too 6.0 as of now.

 Reason for the raised bed is to grow rootlets for transplants.The other raised bed I want to start golden seal in it for transplants also...Plus it will help me learn.....

 Thanks ...Frank

: Re: Raised bed soil....
: Brad September 24, 2011, 06:43:07 PM

Just to follow up on the original question...

I just put in two raised beds last week.  This time, I used 2x8x12'  and made them four feed wide.  I started with one ton of coarse sand in the bed of my pickup.  I then added six large bales of Canadian peat and five normal size bags of shredded hardwood mulch.  I mixed this in the back of the pickup with a Mantis tiller.  (P90X has nothing on this!)  Then, amazingly, it came out to be just right to fill the two new beds.

This makes almost 100 square feet of planting space.  So, for about 64 cubic feet (or about 2.3 cubic yards) I had about $60 in lumber and about $100 in soil mix.